The information below will outline the most common torque converter issues and their solutions. The torque converter is so essential to the global car market theres a global torque converter market. That includes the advanced manufacturing technology being used in optimizing torque converters. You can hide the "Support Ate Up With Motor" box and prevent the loading of its embedded content by going to the "Consent Management" tab and switching the "Allow PayPal Button" toggle to "OFF." During a shudder the desired will stay close to 0rpm but the act pid will go up and down in rpm. In first and second gears, the converter turbine drove the front annulus (ring gear). Obviously some sort of mechanism would have been required to determine what gear to select and when to actually shift, but starting with a Wilson box at least some of the problems would have been solved. Well, I thought I did explain that in my reply post. by SirHandyMan Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:43 am, Post When the two problems are combined, it could mean your torque converter is failing. At idle and very low road speeds, slippage is desirable because it keeps the engine from stalling or lugging in gear. Wilson pre-selectors were pretty well established technology, although not common, by the late 30s. The issues of slippage and heat are the main reasons that street converters should be approached with a serious amount of compromise when it comes to stall speed. Stall speed is measured in the car by applying the brakes and revving the engine in First gear against the brakes. The iThemes Security plugin may also set the itsec-hb-login-xx cookie, which helps to protect the site against "brute force" hacking attempts; that cookie normally expires in about one hour. Google, AdSense, Google AdSense, Google Analytics, and other related marks and logos are trademarks of Google LLC. Torque converter clutch slip Scan tool values 99 GMC Pickup GM's 6L80 HP Tuning, DoD, and Torque Converters! 6 speed/8 speed RWD/FWD Transmission Tuning (incl T43, T76, T87) T43 Torque Converter Desired Slip. On early Ultramatic-equipped Packards, the lockup clutch would not engage until road speed reached at least 15 mph (24 km/h) even on a light throttle. one of the strange quirks of these transmissions is if they are a quart or so low it will feel like the torque converter does not disengage at stop. If you delete or disable these cookies, your existing preferences will be lost and you may not be able to save your privacy settings for this website. Any reading below 10 RPM slip is really errors in reading the sensors, not real slip. For additional information about how Google uses cookies and/or other technologies that may collect and/or process personal information, see the "Technologies" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site and the "Our advertising and measurement cookies" section of their Google Business Data Responsibility site, which includes a detailed list of cookies associated with Google advertising and measurement products. Manage Preferences - Hence, you've commanded your torque converter every time your car shifted gears. Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 am, Post The turbine drives the front annulus through the input shaft (medium blue). If you change certain aspects of the site's appearance using the accessibility sidebar, it may set these cookies to manage and remember your settings. However, that did not cure the shuddering problem. abs, do you have any recommendations on how to troubleshoot a failing torque converter using ForScan? There are several ways to arrange such a clutch, but the common object is to create a mechanical connection between the engine and the transmission input shaft (which otherwise is driven by the fluid clutchs turbine(s)). Almost no one thinks of it, but when you drive your automatic transmission car, you're master over your cars torque converter. register to join our community That should make you and your car happy. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. For more information about what data PayPal services collect and how that data may be used, visit the "Legal Agreements for PayPal Services" page to review the PayPal Privacy Statement and Statement on Cookies and Tracking Technologies that apply in your location (the Statement on Cookies and Tracking Technologies that applies to each region is linked from within the applicable PayPal Privacy Statement). It ran pretty good. Most street torque. The torque converter is made up of five parts: The stator is called the middleman. There are many different types oftorque converter problems. The lockup clutch control valve, not pictured, allows pressurized oil to enter the clutch cylinder through a hollow passage within the input shaft, pushing the pressure plate (colored red, like the torus cover and impeller it rotates with) into the engaged position. 4. The combination of a smaller-diameter and lighter converter means that less engine torque is required for acceleration. If the engine isnt free to turn faster than the driveshaft at rest or extremely low speeds, the engine will stall! Now that we have DISCONTINUED our use of Google Analytics tracking on this website, this cookie no longer functions no additional analytics data will be collected, with or without the cookie. One is turned by the enginge. Privacy Statement - Starting in Drive provided a maximum starting ratio of 3.10:1 (a mechanical ratio of 1.44:1 times a nominal torque converter stall ratio of 2.16:1 at around 1,600 rpm), which was better than the early Ultramatic or Dynaflow, but still made for lazy performance, especially with Studebakers six-cylinder engine. By contrast, a fluid clutch always slips at least a little. A healthy plate clutch slips only briefly when engaged or disengaged. Okay, so it sounds like you were able to identify a potential root cause. The DG series transmissions were notionally three-speed automatics (although early iterations were designed to start in second gear) with a torque converter lockup clutch. We arent saying 10RPM of slip is bad, what we are saying is that seems to be the progression point of going out. At stall speed, the impeller is spinning at engine rpm and the turbine is stopped. They may persist for up to two years. I would be surprised if this is your issue at 81,000 miles. There is more demand in today's market for increased comfort and safety in cars. These early units operated on the same principal of using one electric fan to drive another. If the payment button is visible, it may set the third-party cookies PYPF (via paypalobjects.com, which is owned by PayPal, Inc.), which appears to check whether or not you are a logged-in PayPal user, possibly to facilitate the PayPal user login process, and/or 01A1 (via abmr.net, which is owned by Akamai Technologies), which stores certain technical information about your device and browser (or other user agent), possibly to facilitate the login and shopping cart functions. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. The stock converter wouldn't with a big tune unless I was cruising at light throttle. Akamai is a registered trademark or service mark of Akamai Technologies, Inc. in the United States (Reg. Once your torque converter starts failing, you need to be knowledgeable about what torque converter problems will disable your car? i take it your a writer and not a trans guy ,but maybe someone could answer the question. copyright 2023 AAMCO transmissions inc. The vehicle suffered a torque converter failure at around 140k miles. First, that slip wastes some fuel youre paying for more engine revolutions (and more power) than reach the driveshaft. (WordPress and the WordPress logos are registered trademarks of the WordPress Foundation in the United States and other countries. It stays between 0 and 5 RPM when locked. For more information about Google advertising, see the "Advertising" section of their Google Privacy & Terms site. Borg-Warner continued to sell the DG series for several more years to some non-U.S. customers, but U.S. automakers would not rediscover the lockup clutch for another 20 years. Twice last week, when I came up to a stop light, the engine bogged down to 400rpm then recovered back to normal idle. Sure, there's all kind of talk about stall speed, slippage, and lockup features, but some gearheads secretly believe there's as much voodoo to a torque converter as there is science. (For more information about our discontinuation of Google Analytics tracking on this website, see the "Online Tracking" section of the Privacy Policy. Most Torque Converters today also use a friction clutch to lock up the converter at higher speeds to create more fuel efficiency and less slip. Click to reveal by SirHandyMan Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:24 pm, Post A third drum (dark green) allows the overrunning clutchs outer race to be locked in place by the forward band, which is engaged in all forward gears. In my limited experience, a failing converter in this transmission will start to throw off a lot of black carbon and cause the fluid to rapidly darken. Keep reading to find out these common torque converter problems and how to fix them. The payment button in the "Support Ate Up With Motor" box (and similar payment or donation buttons that may appear on portions of the administrative dashboard, which is not normally accessible except to logged-in administrative users) contains embedded content served by PayPal services. A forum community dedicated to Ford Power Stroke owners and enthusiasts. A high-stall converter like a 4,000-rpm unit is not only lazy from a part-throttle-efficiency standpoint, but it also generates much more heat. This is a session cookie that verifies that the user has entered valid user credentials pending receipt of the correct authentication code; the cookie normally expires when the user closes their browser (or other user agent). When you coast in gear, the transmission attempts to drive the engine crankshaft, whose inertia causes a braking effect. About Us - But this shuttering is not caused by a disease. Once engaged, the lockup clutch simply drove the output shaft at engine speed (not turbine speed). . At some point Ford modified the wiring to include a thick rubber insulator on the wires that extended beyond the edge of the intake manifold to prevent the chaffing. For additional technical information about the cookies used by the analytics service, see their "Google Analytics Cookie Usage on Websites" page; for your reference when reviewing that page, we did not use Google Analytics 4. Torque converter seals can get damaged for several reasons. Logging in sets the wordpress_logged_in_xx, wordpress_sec_xx, and/or wordpress_xx cookies, which store the user's login credentials to allow access to the administrative dashboard and other administrative functions; there may be multiple iterations of each cookie. AAMCO Centers are independently owned and operated. The TCC solenoid regulates the fluid pressure to the clutch. I feel better and it makes more sense now. The fluid did not look dirty. So far the bogging down hasn't happened since last week. This is a very slick trick and can be worth up to 2.5 times engine torque! Part 3 of 3 High Performance Academy Sonnax and SIU - Mega Torque. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. Welcome to the dark world of torque converters. by SirHandyMan Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:52 pm, Post The end result is the torque converterisn't able to transferthat power completely and efficiently from the engine to the transmission. But once they are damaged, you will experience fluid leaks. As youll see if you look at the first one, the original iteration had three speeds forward and one reverse, for which it requires four epicyclic gearsets. 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Accessing certain posts or pages on this website may require you to enter a specific password. Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. ), These third-party cookies may be set in connection with embedded video players for content hosted on the Vimeo video platform, for purposes such as (without limitation) managing video settings, storing video preferences, providing certain functionality (e.g., allowing you to pause a video at a particular point), associating your video viewing and other activity with your Vimeo account (if you have one), showing you advertising, ensuring proper functioning of the service, preventing abuse, and/or compiling user analytics data. For a drag-race car, the cost of this additional slippage is worth the price, but for a street car it creates other problems. 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Generally, by the time you reach the 60-foot mark on the dragstrip, torque multiplication is effectively eliminated and the turbine and impeller speeds are close to achieving what converter manufacturers call coupling speed. abs thank you for posting your experience here. Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line. The drive fan moves air across the blades of the driven fan (which is turned off). Another important part of the torque converter and stall-speed equation is converter diameter. I found the cause of the P0325 and P0330 error codes. scheme, but it does contribute. We thought 10 was bad 2 years ago. Your car shudders almost as if it's caught the flu and has a temperature. To resolve the issue, I have reduce the desired slip to 10 rpm in 3-6th gear and increased the + side of the apply ramp table by about 10% across the board and up to 30% in the slip rpm of 2-12. The car became basically undriveable. All site content Copyright 2007-var year=new Date(); year=year.getYear(); if (year<1900) year+=1900; document.write(year); FordFlex.net FordFlex.net is in no way affiliated with Ford Motor Company. Ate Up With Motor and its embedded content providers may use cookies and/or similar technologies and collect personal information about site visitors as described in the Privacy Policy and Cookie Notice. another masterpiece. I've got reason to believe my torque converter is going out, which readings can I look at to determine if that's actually my problem? For one, the engine would stall every time the vehicle came to a halt with the lockup clutch engaged unless the driver shifted to neutral each time. One or more wp-saving-post cookies may be set while creating and/or editing posts or pages, to help manage version control and the autosave feature; these cookies normally expire after about 24 hours. (At this point, an updated, expanded edition wouldnt go amiss, given all the subsequent development in CVTs and automatics with five or more speeds.). (At present, this setting does NOT affect the payment or donation buttons that may appear on portions of the site's administrative dashboard, nor does hiding the box affect any cookies that may have already been set). When the vehicle is at rest, the fluid clutch slips enough to allow the engine to idle with the transmission in gear without stalling. Well Aaron . I was monitoring some Torque converter params for my 4R55E with my in dash scantool. sir im having an issue with my 93 f150 aod. ), This cookie was set if you clicked the "Disable Google Analytics Tracking" link to prevent the Google Analytics service from tracking your use of the Ate Up With Motor website. The mount on the transmission side (under the battery) was severely damaged, the rubber legs inside the bushing were torn through and was allowing a lot of engine movement. Tuning. Archive - ), These cookies were previously used by the Google Analytics service to collect information about visitors and their use of the Ate Up With Motor website. iThemes is one of the Liquid Web family of brands; iThemes and Liquid Web are trademarks of Liquid Web, LLC.). I believe that the drive train motion could be perceived as a "shudder" especially under high torque/high load conditions. Since the 1940s, automakers have come up with a variety of strategies for reducing or eliminating that slip, including series parallel split torque transmissions and different types of converter lockup clutches. (author diagram). & Tm. When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Each PayPal payment or donation button may also incorporate a tracking pixel called "pixel.gif" (which loads from paypalobjects.com). By changing the angle of the impeller blades, the torque-converter manufacturer can create a converter that generates a given stall speed with a certain torque multiplication. Many times, people think there is something wrong with their transmission when the problem lies with their torque converter. I switched from a junk converter slipping that much to a tight well built version and picked up .3 and 4mph behind a healthy smallblock (10.2's at 127mph) Comments may be moderated. If your going over ten your gonna need a new torque converter fairly soon..depends how you drive.. my converter started off slipping at about 13 on the 275 and ended up wearing out pretty quick and it began slipping like 45-50 on the gauge. If you are experiencing shuddering, also check your engine mounts. 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When you experience fluid leaks, you aren't retaining the amount of transmission fluid; the torque converter needs to transfer the power from the engine to the transmission. That could be within the margin of error for the sensor. I never saw a problem with the converter, it never went over 3 to 4 RPM slippage at WOT with it locked. The torque converter is made up of five parts: 1. The logic of these schematics, which are not to scale and which have been greatly simplified for clarity, is that each color represents a set of components that are integral or otherwise connected so that they always rotate together; clutches, brake bands, planet pinions, and flywheels are shown in black or gray.